Quaker Anger: Trans Rights and Spiritual Activism with Chloe Schwenke

Download the transcript and discussion questions.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: 

1. Chloe emphasizes the importance of truly seeing transgender people as human beings rather than ideologies. How can faith communities move beyond surface-level tolerance to genuinely recognize the full humanity and dignity of marginalized groups? What practical steps can individuals take to see “that of God” in people whose experiences differ from their own?
2. Chloe describes channeling her anger into spiritual activism, calling it “Quaker anger.” How do you understand the relationship between righteous anger and spiritual practice? When, if ever, is anger an appropriate response to injustice, and how can communities help discern when and how to act on that anger?
3. Despite facing significant political and personal challenges, Chloe speaks of Howard Thurman’s “growing edge” and finding hope in her students and children. In times when injustice feels overwhelming and “intended to be devastating,” how do you maintain hope and continue working for change? What are your own “growing edges” that keep you moving forward?

Jon Watts: Hi friends. It’s Jon Watts. What you’re about to hear is the first in our June mini series of Quaker stories that speak to this moment. You can expect a new episode in your feed every week, until July, when we’ll take a quick break to get everything in order for Season Three, which launches in August. And just a heads up, you’re about to hear a new voice. The host of this episode is Zack Jackson, our new Podcast Producer. Please stick around to the end of this episode to hear a quick conversation I had with Zack about who he is, how he came to this job, and what he’s working on for season three. Okay, here’s the show.

Zack Jackson: We begin our miniseries with a truth that is both ancient and urgent: that every human being bears the image of God. In Quaker circles, we say that “there is that of God in everyone”, and that basic affirmation of the inherent dignity and sacredness of all human beings is at the core of our spiritual identity. But it’s more than that. The presence of the Divine within each person means that the eternal, ineffable, kaleidoscopic Spirit is more fully made known to us each time we know and affirm the full humanity of another person. Choosing to love a person who they are is a radical act that enriches the soul of both the giver and receiver of that love, but unfortunately, many people have not seen it that way. In fact, it’s quite the opposite right now. 

Last year, there were 691 anti-transgender bills introduced across 43 states, and in the first five months of 2025 alone, there have been 914 such bills introduced across 49 states. The president has issued a number of executive orders to limit the rights of trans people, and universities are silencing trans voices for fear of government retaliation. Despite making up only about 1% of the US population, the trans community has borne the brunt of this administration’s ideological warfare, and many of us are wondering what we can do to stem the tide of hated and violence. 

So to help us understand both what is at stake and what can be done, we talked to professor, author, and activist Chloe Schwenke. Chloe is currently teaching professor at Georgetown University and was the first transgender political appointee at USAID under the Obama administration. 

Her journey is one of profound personal discovery, courage, and a deep spiritual grounding that calls her to confront the pressing realities of our time. We’re going to explore Chloe’s story, the challenges facing the transgender community, and where, in the midst of it all, we might find the strength, the spirit, and even the righteous anger to act. This isn’t just a story; it’s an invitation to a deeper understanding and a call to courageous compassion.

Segment 1: Her Story

Zack Jackson: As our conversation with Chloe begins, she invites us into the early moments of her life story, where questions and contradictions of identity, belonging, and faith were already taking shape beneath the surface.

Chloe Schwenke: I didn’t know what I was. I mean, well, that’s a broad statement. I grew up in a military family and a long standing military family. My grandfather was a general in the Marines. My dad was a colonel in the Marines. All three of my brothers went into the military. It was just kind of expected. That’s what boys do in the family, and I knew, well, actually, I did go in the military. I went into ROTC, first year of college, and I lasted two weeks. It was so evident to me, this was not what I was supposed to be doing, but that’s kind of, you know, breaking free to be yourself, to be authentic when you’re coming from a very loving family, but a family with a very strong tradition of its own that you don’t fit into, was one of the very first conflicts that I had to deal with, and my challenge was situating myself. I didn’t have the words. I didn’t have the words to describe the inner turmoil that just never allowed me to feel comfortable in my own skin. There was just something clearly wrong and no particularly clear way to get to an answer about that. But again and again, the message to me is that, “You got to go deeper, girl, you got to go deeper”.

Zack Jackson: This journey led her through various life changes, always searching and always trying to be true to herself. But despite her growth, there was always something at her core that she didn’t have words for. She spent dozens of hours with multiple counselors until the right one changed her life with a single question…

Chloe Schwenke: I had already decided that this life was not worth living. It’s so unbelievably uncomfortable. It’s, something that I cannot explain to a cisgender person, and I, I struggle to even, I mean, I don’t even try it anymore, because it’s not fair on them or me, because it’s not explainable. It’s something you either feel or you don’t. The power of that unease, the power of that discombobulation, that lack of real sense of belonging, is not something that’s translatable, but it is so real, and I literally could not stand it anymore. It just was not working. She asked me the question, “Have you ever thought you might be a woman?” There was never a more important question in my life, because I never had. It was that one question too far, the one question that was just beyond a curtain that I had never even seen, and I opened that curtain there and then, and the answer was as bright as daylight. There was no denying that answer, and I’ve never looked back for a moment. 

Zack Jackson: Transitioning is never a solo act. For Chloe, the journey toward living authentically wasn’t just about self-understanding, it was about finding a community willing to do the hard work of love alongside her; a community that would also create a safe space for her spouse and her children to figure out how to live and love together. 

Chloe Schwenke: It took a Quaker meeting to make her safe, to make my two children safe, and to make me safe, and to create the safe space that I needed. So all of that was hard work. All of that was incredibly rigorous work that had to proceed at its own pace, and that that own pace was much too fast for almost everybody else, and it wasn’t nearly fast enough for me. I guess the biggest takeaway from how my meeting supported me was they didn’t make me do all the work. My meeting recognized right away that they couldn’t just put this all on my shoulders. You know, “you tell us what we need to do. You educate us.” It’s all, you know, “Okay, Chloe, you know, we’ll find the time, but you got to do all the work, girl.” So one of the very first things they did was said, “Well, we’re going to set aside time in a substantial way, in a safe location”. In this case, the clerk’s house on a regular basis, and there was no question that people would be available. And I invited people who had doubts. I invited people that really were uncertain to be part of that group, and the meeting helped me to find those people, because I didn’t want the easy option. I wanted it to be something that I knew would replicate at some level, what I had to deal with in the world around me, and we created that space, and that space was really important to me.

Segment 2: Trans Rights in the Middle of a Culture War

Zack Jackson: As we dive deeper into this conversation with Chloe, we’re confronted with the reality that dignity is not abstract – it’s deeply personal. The willingness to simply see another human being in their fullness seems straightforward, yet for the transgender community, even this basic recognition has become politicized and contested.

Chloe Schwenke: One of the very first things to ask of people is to learn a little bit about us. Transgender, any sort of gender non conformity is a very is a very easy thing to push away, because it’s not comfortable for a lot of people. It’s not comfortable for me. I mean, it’s hard to be a transgender woman. It’s hard to know that I missed my entire girlhood. It’s hard to know that I have people that absolutely hate me and, you know, like Michael Knowles, the big, sort of vocal influencer on the far right, speaks about our eradication. He uses that language on PBS news. I mean, oh my God, it’s a hard life to live when that’s an okay conversation (well not really an okay), but it’s there, and it’s there in very prominent ways, but I would like people to see us first and foremost, and that means consciously learn something about us. There’s been a transgender day of visibility held recently. That’s a really powerfully moving day, because that’s not asking much by a human being. Just look at me. Just see me. And not just see me in the clothes I’m wearing. Look in. See a person, see a human being, see a human being that’s had a really hard life in multiple ways, and just be with that for a moment. You know, don’t reach for conclusions, just be with that. 

Then kind of give that person the benefit of the doubt, which is the most basic thing you can do for another human being who is different than you. Give them some space. Let them, you know, have the chance to touch your soul a little bit. I think a lot of our journeys are soul touching journeys. I think we’ve done some very, very deep introspection about what it is to be a human being and what it is, importantly, that gender means as a part of the package of humanity. That’s not much to ask of another human being to simply not reach a conclusion, just be with that person. You don’t have to decide, but you do have to decide to not be against us. You have to just be with us. 

And we have enough space in our society. We’re a big country. It’s not hard for you to just let us be that’s all we’re asking. We just want to get on with our lives. That does ask for some civil rights and some political rights and some laws. We’ve had those taken away from us recently, although they’re being fought in the courts. This isn’t a legal battle, though. This is a spiritual battle. This is a battle of seeing that of God in everyone. And it’s not just seeing that of God in every one. And I always take that word apart: every one. It’s responding to that of God in everyone. And it’s that response where humanity happens. It’s also that response where I think God touches us.

Zack Jackson: The weaponization of identity politics has real-world consequences. When leaders frame certain groups as “ideologies” rather than people, it creates permission for harm. Chloe’s professional experience brings a unique perspective on how dignity and human rights are interconnected, and what happens when we lose sight of that connection.

Chloe Schwenke: But I mean, this is the stuff we’re up against. It’s just, you know, people translating fear into action in ways that are being guided to say, “this is okay.” We have a president who, in the very first day, is declaring that we don’t actually exist where, you know, we’re an ideology, we’re not people. He’s allowing people to legally discriminate against us right now. He’s allowing us to be denied health care. He’s allowing us to be incarcerated in the wrong prisons, which is a death sentence, and a pretty horrific death sentence at that. You know, the lawyers are pushing back, but just the fact that Trump’s opportunism has no bounds. You know, whatever works, works, but my goodness as at a spiritual level, at an emotional level, it would be so important for us to hear congressmen, senators, other Political figures saying, Stop this crap. Stop this attack on trans people. These are human beings. They’re citizens. They’re people who deserve our respect and to be recognized and treated with dignity. That’s not a that’s not a heavy message. Well, it is a heavy message. But it’s not that hard of a message that any American should have any hesitation to say, But they clearly do.

Zack Jackson: In 2010, Chloe was appointed as Senior Advisor on democracy, human rights and governance for sub-Saharan Africa at USAID. The United States Agency for International Development is the government agency that is tasked with bringing humanitarian aid and education to those in need around the world. Or, at least, it was. The Trump administration has done everything in its power to close USAID and to dismantle all programs that teach diversity, equity, and inclusion both at home and abroad. To many, DEI is just the most recent political buzzword, but to Chloe, who has been doing this work for decades, these are foundational values with real-world implications. When we understand the global significance of these principles, we recognize that reducing them to acronyms risks diminishing their profound importance and the human dignity they protect.

Chloe Schwenke: I work. As you, as you mentioned, in the DEI space, I worked in two capacities. I was the senior advisor on democracy, human rights and governance for the whole continent of Africa at USAID. And after living and working in Africa for 15 years, that was a really, real big honor, and something I really worked hard to, you know, to earn, as it were, to live. But in the middle of that, you know, we got the invitation to write the very first LGBT. They used to only use the four letters then, policy for USAID for International Development. And I also really worked hard to bring human rights. I am an ethicist, after all, to bring human rights into the conversation at USAID and the US government in a way that we’re not just talking about law, we’re talking about human dignity, and we need to be more comfortable having that conversation, not just saying, you know, let’s just talk about abuses of human rights. As important as that is, let’s talk about dignity and why people deserve to be treated in certain ways, to be recognized. 

We, in Quakerdom, call that, “that of God in every person”, but human dignity is a code all. We’re just fine. That works very well. I would pause here a minute just to ask your listeners to in effect, stop saying DEI. Actually say the words diversity, equity, inclusion. These are powerful, principled, compassionate, caring, humanizing words, do you think? It’s kind of like saying human dignity. And one of the challenges I tell my policy students is, are you ready to throw away human dignity? Do you know what that trade off entails? And if you’re not, then start talking about it. Don’t treat it as a throwaway. These are important words. They mean a lot. And to simply dismiss DEI as some kind of a, I don’t know, “affirmative action gone wild” is, is craziness. It’s just so damaging. 

I just want to ask anybody who’s against DEI, saying, Are you actually against human diversity? I mean, do you want us all to be exactly the same? Are you absolutely against equity fairness? Do you really want to have a society that’s not fair and inclusion? Do you want to have it okay to exclude the elderly, the too young? The too… I don’t know whatever category you want to use to exclude people. Is that really you? Because I don’t think that’s what America is about, and I don’t think most Americans think that either, but Trump is mostly playing a racism card, and he’s playing it with such remarkable boldness, I’m just astounded that there are not protests out every single day, thinking of all the work that was done in the civil rights era, he’s taken us right back to before that started. And why is there not screaming from the rooftops about that? There’s some, but nowhere near enough. 

Zack Jackson: After the break, Chloe shares her thoughts on righteous anger, finding hope in challenging times, and how communities can move from feeling stricken to taking meaningful action. Stay with us.

Jon Watts: We get so many great comments from our listeners about how they decided to become monthly supporters of this podcast, and today, I wanted to share Hannah Ringler’s story with you. What really piqued our interest is that Hannah said she listens to the podcast with her young son on their way to meeting in Durham, North Carolina. But her journey to Quakerism started long before she became a mom.

Hannah Ringler: My mother was raised Methodist, and when we were children, she wanted us to have a wide variety of options to choose from. So we did a grand tour of the denominations of the county I grew up in. We went to the Methodists and the Presbyterians and the Episcopalians, and every now and then to the Quakers. I also attended camp Celo as a young elementary school student. And camp Celo is a Quaker camp. And so one of the things that you do at Camp Celo is that on Sundays, you attend meeting for a little while, and then, as an adult, I wanted to go back to Quaker meeting. It was always the experience that had resonated with me most deeply. I like to sit and think quietly and to be quiet. I’ve always felt like the Divine is closest when I am immersed in nature and it’s just me and the trees and the wind and meeting is the closest that you can come to that with other people. And I really appreciate the way that meeting is silenced together, having the weight of everyone else doing it at the same time really makes that easier, and knowing that we are all questing after that quiet truth

Jon Watts: When Hannah and her husband settled in their new home in Durham, North Carolina, it was her goal to attend meeting regularly, but this was on the cusp of the pandemic followed by the birth of her son, so instead, She began attending meeting on Zoom.

Hannah Ringler: Being in that community has led to some really intense spiritual experiences. I was sitting in meeting and settling in, and I heard a little voice say, “What is it that you need?” And I said, “Joy,” and I had just waves of the most intense joy for an hour. And it was just an unbelievable experience. It was so indescribable.

Jon Watts: Hannah wanted to understand more about this faith that she’d felt drawn to since she was a kid, and that’s how she found Thee Quaker podcast.

Hannah Ringler: So I felt like I didn’t have a lot of grounding in what it means to be Quaker. So I was looking for a podcast that I could listen to that would help give me some of that information so that I could decide whether or not this was something I genuinely wanted to commit to, and so that if I did, I could do so in an informed and thoughtful way and fully. And I ran across the podcast, and it’s been extremely helpful for providing that background and context that I was looking for. One thing that I found that I wasn’t expecting was that it gave me a lot to think about and often prepared me for meeting, especially when you’re feeling really scattered. If you go into meeting and you sit down and you continue to be scattered. And I also like that obviously my three year old doesn’t understand most of what he hears, but he does listen very attentively to everything. And we listen on the way to meeting and on the way back, I talk to him about what being in meeting was like and what he did with the caretakers. And also we talk about the podcast, and then we talk about anything that came up that he was interested in, like, “What did you hear? What do you have any questions about it?” and he often has something to say.

Jon Watts: And that is why Hannah not only listens to the podcast, but also decided to become a monthly supporter.

Hannah Ringler: Well, you’re doing the work of educating me. I owe you. You’re giving me the lessons that I was looking for and needed. And that work is important, and if I want to keep having this material that I was looking for, I need to ensure that you have the funding to keep doing it.

Jon Watts: We are so thankful to hear stories like this one about how this show has supported Hannah and her son to discover the spiritual richness of friends around the world and to connect with their local meeting. With your help, we can keep doing this work. In less than five minutes, you can become a supporter for just a few dollars a month, and help us produce the stories that resonate with longtime friends, new friends and seekers. Just go to Quakerpodcast.com and click the support button. Thank you so much. Now back to the show.

Segment 3: Quaker Anger, Human Dignity, and the Path Forward

Zack Jackson: Welcome back. Before our break, we explored Chloe’s personal journey and the current political climate affecting transgender communities. Now, we turn to the spiritual and emotional responses these challenges evoke – including an emotion not often associated with Quakerism: anger. Chloe offers a powerful perspective on how anger, when properly channeled, can be both spiritual and necessary.

Chloe Schwenke: How do I sum all this up? I guess, as you know, I, as any trans person or intersex person or non-binary person, and we have to remember these other two categories, because they’re as challenged, if not more so than I am. All three of these demographics are right in the crosshairs right now of a culture war that is absolutely brutal. And if we can’t find that safe space and a community that will support us, or at least, will learn to see us, and that visibility being seen is really so important, we don’t stand a chance. I mean, I’ll put it that way. We really don’t. And I’m still finding that. I mean, I’m still finding that, especially now, when there’s so much antithesis to the notion that, you know, even the breaking the humanity out of it and calling it gender ideology, or transgender ideology, that’s a very clever device to take the person out of it. Well, I am the person in it, and no one’s taken me out of it. I’m not an ideology. I’m Chloe, and it’s important people stop doing that, because that is so dehumanizing, and it makes me, as you could tell, it makes me angry, and there’s a room for Quaker anger here. Absolutely. Yeah.

Zack Jackson: What is “Quaker Anger”? We often think of religious communities, particularly Quaker meetings, as spaces of quiet contemplation and measured response. But spiritual practice isn’t always serene. Sometimes it demands that we feel deeply, that we allow ourselves to be moved by injustice, and that we channel that energy into action. When faced with dehumanization, perhaps anger is not just permitted but required.

Chloe Schwenke: Yeah, Quaker anger, that’s discomforting for a lot of people. I don’t know. I mean, you know, we are a religion that believes in continuing revelation. We’re a religion that believes that the messages are there if you simply listen. And sometimes, when you listen to the messages, they’re telling you very uncomfortable things. They’re telling you to get off your ass and do something. They’re telling you to not just sit there and pontificate or feel stricken, and Quakers are pretty good at feeling stricken. I get feeling stricken a lot, but I don’t want to sit. I want to do something, and that doing something usually means getting on and writing or speaking to people. And if you simply sit back in your pew and feel stricken, it’s not good enough. It really isn’t. 

And I don’t tell people what to do and where to take that anger, and I think it’s a spiritual anger. It’s a spiritual accountability, more than anything, if you really believe what you’re claiming to believe, as a Quaker, that there is that of God in everyone, get out there and do something about it, at least, say something about it, do what you can what gifts you have, find what those gifts are, and use them. That’s what they’re there for. And I am driven. I would, I, you know, I could call it, you know, my response to my obligation to be accountable as a good Quaker. But that’s not authentic. I’m angry. I’m angry. I’m angry. I’m angry at being treated like I’m often treated as a trans person. I’m angry particularly at trans kids the way they’re being abused and they really are being abused because we know better. I’m angry at the MAGA movement for treating humanity so poorly right now, by basically dehumanizing so much of it, because it’s not comfortable for them, and they’re not willing to do the work to find out who we are. 

But I’m angry at people on my side too. We’re just not working to find that middle ground. Now there is plenty of middle ground. We’re all in our little camps throwing, I don’t know, rhetorical stones at each other, but sometimes they have really hard rocks inside of them, and it’s hurting people. I’m just angry about all the hurt right now. I’m angry about seeing USAID destroyed. I’m angry about, I’ll say it, millions of people who will die, and I’m angry about the lack of empathy and care and compassion by those who made those decisions. I’m really angry that Elon Musk says any society that has empathy is weak. That is about the height of perversion. I’m angry about that too. So there’s plenty to be angry about. And I think what’s important with that anger is to channel it into ways that you’re feeling led by the Spirit, which is an invitation to all kinds of havoc. So it means a very, very careful, you know, introspection and centering. But it also takes a community to help discern where to take that anger. I think just striking out is not the answer, but I put my Quaker community to hard work.

Zack Jackson: In times of overwhelming challenges, hope can feel elusive. The question becomes not just how to maintain our own sense of purpose, but how to nurture it in others. How do we find hope in the face of seemingly impossible odds and how do we find the courage to keep fighting when it feels like our strength is not up to the task? 

Chloe Schwenke: Well, that’s a really important question, because a lot of people aren’t finding that strength or that strength right now. This is overwhelming, and it’s intended to be overwhelming. It’s intended to be disempowering. It’s intended to be and the word often used right now, devastating. That’s a word to sit with for a little while. Think of what it means to be devastated. I don’t have a choice. It’s kind of like, you know, I’m a woman. I’ve got to be a woman. I’m, that’s who I am. I see what’s going on right now, and I don’t, I have, I do have a choice. I could sit and just weep and I do that. I’m, there’s no question. I don’t feel this, particularly when I’m seeing really dear people, particularly, you know, I was 18 years in the developing world, 15 in Africa. 

These are people. These are real lives, people that are being hurt. And I know them. I know their faces, I know their families. I know their kids. And I’m very, very, very hurt that we as Americans would would destroy the trust that they depended on. I look at all the Foreign Service nationals, the local people that work for USAID around the world, who, again, are unwritten heroes. They’ve just lost their jobs too. I’m so angry. I’m so inconsolable at some level, because they won’t find jobs, anything like that. And we as a country have lost such an incredibly important population of hard, dedicated, caring and patriotic people. And I say that with some hesitation, because they’re people of other nationalities, but they really lifted it up. They really lifted it up for America, and we’ve dismissed them out of hand. 

So it’s very easy to get really, really stricken to inactivity and despair. I can’t afford that. I got two children. I’m hoping I have some grandchildren someday. I’ve got a future to look forward to. I have Howard Thurman’s growing edge. I love his writings about, you know his his way of finding optimism. There is always a growing edge that takes us to a better place. My growing edge, of course, is my children. My growing edge is my graduate students that I teach. I see in them hope. I see that, hope that can grow, and I know my part in that is to nurture that. And I’m so blessed to be at this university. It’s a Jesuit university. I have lots to learn from the Jesuits, and I’m working on that right now too. We don’t have a corner on spiritual knowledge and awareness. So, yeah, I mean, I just don’t, I will not give in to despair, because I cannot. 

 Zack Jackson: Chloe’s story invites us into deeper reflection about our own spiritual practices of seeing, responding, and taking action. What would it mean for our communities to truly see each person in their fullness? How might our anger become a catalyst for justice rather than division? These questions aren’t just theoretical – they’re invitations to engage with the growing edges in our own lives and in our world.

What does Quaker anger look like to you and how are you feeling called to make a difference in your community? Leave us a comment, send us an email, or engage with us on social media. Justice is a team sport, and we need each other’s collective wisdom to find our way. So let us do this work together, and may the world shine brighter for your place within it. 

Jon Watts: Thank you for listening and thank you to today’s guest, Chloe Schwenke. You can find out more about Chloe’s work through the link in our show notes.

Go to QuakerPodcast.com for discussion questions and a transcript of this episode as well as a place to continue this discussion with like minded folks.  

This episode was edited and produced and hosted by Zack Jackson with help from me, Jon Watts. I also wrote and produced the music.  

Thee Quaker Podcast is part of Thee Quaker Project, we’re a nonprofit Quaker media organization dedicated to giving Quakerism a platform in the 21st century. If you like what we’re up to, please consider becoming a monthly supporter. 

You can go to QuakerPodcast.com and click support in the top right menu. It takes less than five minutes and we really appreciate it. Thank you.

Jon Watts: Well, hi, Zack, 

Zack Jackson: Oh, hi, Jon. 

Jon Watts: First of all, thank you for your work on this episode. This interview with Chloe was really powerful and well edited. And you know, congratulations on a great first episode.  

Zack Jackson: Thanks. It was a joy. Every part of it.

Jon Watts: So this, this is the first time our listeners are hearing your voice. You have been behind the scenes for the last couple of off season episodes, but you’re sort of taking the reins here. So we thought we’d take a moment to introduce you. I wonder if we could start with a little bit about your background. Who, who are you? Where do you come from, and what brings you to this work?

Zack Jackson: I guess real quickly, I’m a lifelong resident of the greater Philadelphia area, you know, South Jersey and Philly and now out in Pottstown, where I and my wife co-planted a United Church of Christ Church. So I am a very part time pastor and a full time podcaster. And I just, I have been in the world of creative storytelling, and especially in this really intimate medium of podcasting, for, I don’t know, the better part of the last eight or nine years. And I just, I love this medium so much, and it is really an honor to be able to tell these, these stories in this way, and to be with a team who also appreciates these, these stories of spiritual courage.

Jon Watts: You know, we’ve spent the last couple of months doing a lot of planning, right? We’ve looked at a lot of systems. We thought a lot about the future. We’ve looked at the calendar a lot. We’ve spent a lot of time in, you know, our CRM and Dropbox and Google Drive. But when you zoom out from all of that, all the logistics and the minutia of running a project like this, what are you what are you most excited about in the coming months?

Zack Jackson: Well, we have just basically finalized the schedule for season three, and it is only known internally, so I can’t share with the listeners at home how excited I am about all of these really interesting stories that I, as a non-Quaker, only know the edges of and that I’m really excited to get to the bottom of, to talk to people, to interview people, to kind of go visit places and see things with my own eyes.

Jon Watts: Yeah, I do. I do want to talk about season three. That’ll be my last question. I think we can totally like, let’s, you know, let’s tell our listeners what we got in store. Get we’re really excited, and we want to, we want to bring you in the fold. I’m always curious. Like, you know, when you first saw the Quaker job posting, what was your sort of first thought about? You know what you already knew about Quakers? Another way to ask this would be maybe like, what are your friends and family saying about you taking a Quaker job?

Zack Jackson: I have had to explain, number one, who Quakers are, and number two, that they still exist to so many people in my life. I mean, I grew up in Jersey and Philadelphia, and so you would think that people at least know William Penn, you know, and some of the bigger name Quakers from that time. But most of my people in my circle had no idea. 

When I was living in Philly, I was with a Mennonite group, and the Mennonites and the Quakers kind of had, I think, what we would call, like, a convergent evolution kind of like how emus and ostriches aren’t actually related, but they just evolved that way on two separate continents. Yeah. So there’s like, oh, there’s a group that’s in the middle of a reformation, and they decide we’re going to be radically peace filled people who reject the authority of the Church and are out here doing it on our own and searching for the spirit within. And then, oh, look, the church doesn’t actually like us. We get persecuted and sent to Pennsylvania. 

I mean, that’s the story of both of them. And so when I was with the Mennonites, doing a lot of peace work in Philly, I brushed elbows with a lot of Quakers. And my impression of Quakers at the time was that they were often a quirky but focused group of people that our values aligned, socially and theologically in a lot of ways, but they seemed to have a longer tradition of troublemaking than what I was coming from, and I’ve learned that to be true. Yeah, lots of good trouble and lots of behind the scenes good trouble. Like you don’t scream at protests, but you stand quietly for an hour and make everybody uncomfortable. I’m kind of into that.

Jon Watts: Yeah. So you’ve been with us for a month and a half, two months, almost two months. So, yeah, what’s the experience been like for you so far? What are you processing? What are you learning? What do you?  

Zack Jackson: From an organizational perspective, Thee Quaker project might be the most well organized nonprofit I’ve ever worked with. I’ve worked with a lot of nonprofits, and usually nonprofits have a good heart, but really poor organizational structure. This organization is very well organized. So well done. Good job. I think that bodes well for the future of this organization. You know, we’re launching a video project later this year, and who knows what comes after that, but I think in a group that is well put together, that that is very conducive for success in the long term. 

And while I was trying to get my feet under me and figure out all of the various logins and passwords and ways of logging information and whatnot, I think maybe the one of the first emails I got in the producer email was from a listener who asked if we had heard about this raid, that this police raid that had happened at this Westminster meeting in London, and if we were going to cover it on the podcast. Seriously, one of the first emails I got, and I responded, and I said, Hey, I’m Zach. I’m new, and we’re not, we’re not really planning on doing a new podcast episodes until Season Three launches in, you know, August or so. I kind of need some time to get acclimated and to plan and to sort of do all of that so we can be prepared first. 

And then we had gotten another message from somebody else, asking if we had heard about these various lawsuits, that these couple of lawsuits that a couple of different Quaker organizations had joined together with to sue the Department of Homeland Security over its reversing its policy for ICE agents to enter into houses of worship. And were we going to cover that? And we were like, well, we’re not really set up organizationally, structurally to cover breaking news. That’s not really, we’re not really a breaking news podcast. But it felt like, okay, maybe there people are asking, and there is a moment to speak to. So maybe we, before we jump into season three, we do a season two and a half. 

And I remember you came up to me, you asked me if I’d be willing to kind of, instead of learning first and then going, if I’d be willing to just kind of be kicked out of the nest and see if we could fly. Was like, absolutely, that sounds like a lot of fun, as long as you don’t as long as you’re okay with me messing up the organizational stuff a few times as I figure out where everything goes, we can kind of learn together on the fly, and that has been the way it’s gone. And, you know, this episode is the first part of that season two and a half that I’m really, really excited about releasing, because it is so topical and, unfortunately, I think it will still be relevant next year as well, but is really speaking to the moment.

Jon Watts: Yeah, so we are. This is the first of four episode mini season and several of those stories that Zack just mentioned, the Quaker lawsuits and the police raid in England. You can expect, you can expect those in your feed in the next few weeks and then. And then we’re gonna take July to prepare for season three. And in August, we are fully launching season three. You’ll see episodes in your feed every week. And that will be starting in August. So can you give us a little teaser of what to expect starting in August?

Zack Jackson: Season two and a half is a really good segue into season three. We collected all these different stories that we wanted to tell and ideas that were percolating and topics that were important to people, and the common theme that kept rising up is that of Quaker prophetic action, or Quaker prophetic witness, people who are taking an outward, visible stand, people whose faith is motivating and driving them to do something practical in the world. And so we wanted to highlight stories both ancient and modern, ancient, you know, 400 years ago, but old and modern of Quaker, prophetic witness from the totally out there. You know, Benjamin Lay stabbing a book and having fake blood go ever all over everyone in the meeting to something more like standing silently and holding worship out in front of new Scotland Yard, like we have the full range of people responding out of the depths of their faith into a situation that they’re in in that moment, and the whole season is going to sort of center around those, and we’re going to try to make it as not only interesting as possible, but also deeply immediately applicable as possible, that you should be able to listen to one of these episodes and then have something to bring to your friends and to your family to say, hey, we could try this in our space. This worked there. So kind of a little teaser for what’s, what’s coming and

Jon Watts: Thank you for your work, Zack, and we have a lot to look forward to here. Listeners, if you’d like to reach out and welcome Zack to the podcast or give him some ideas about what he might include in season three. Zack, how do they? How do they get in touch with you?  

Zack Jackson: They can send an email to zack@theequaker.org or they can go to Quakerpodcast.com and they can find contact information there. They can reach out via social media channels or commenting on literally anything we put out. We’re a small team, and we communicate very well, so any way possible that you can find a way to reach out, please, please do.

Jon Watts: Zack will see it. Carrier pigeon, smoke signal, Morse code…

Zack Jackson: Especially carrier pigeon, that will be wild. They’re extinct. 

Jon Watts: All right. Well, thank you Zack, and thank you for listening, and we’ll, we’ll see you next week. 

Hosted and Produced by Zack Jackson

Original music and sound design by Jon Watts (Listen to more of Jon’s music here.)

Mixed and mastered by Zack Jackson.

Supported by listeners like you (thank you!!)