How Quakers Invented America 

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1. Max’s story of the Earlham student snapping a photo of Queen Elizabeth perfectly illustrates the historic Quaker refusal to bow to earthly authority or observe strict class protocols. Where do you see this specific anti-authoritarian streak alive in American culture today? 
2. Carter suggests that Thomas Paine’s revolutionary pamphlet Common Sense was essentially a “secularized version of Penn’s Holy Experiment”. Did it work? Without the spiritual foundation, do Quaker values have the same power? 
3. In his closing thoughts, Max wishes for a return to the Quaker ideal that leaders are never above the law, and that they should prioritize justice, mercy, and humility over amassing wealth or power. What practical steps can communities take today to demand and cultivate those specific values in our political landscape? 

Zack Jackson
Hey Friends. Zack here. Before we get into our episode today, I wanted to let you all know about a very special live Zoom event that we are hosting next week; July 7th. As you’ll hear shortly, today’s episode features an interview with Quaker Historian Max Carter about some of the surprising ways that Quakers influenced the foundations, laws, and culture of the United States. 

You may also notice that this is a huge topic for a half hour, so we didn’t have time to get into some of the messy complexities of that relationship such as Quaker’s role in the slave trade and William Penn’s complicated relationship with the Native Americans. 

So, we are hosting a deeper dive on Zoom on July 7th at 7:00 PM Eastern Time. Max will be going even further into these surprising stories, sharing some new ones, and answering your questions live. It’s a perk exclusively for our podcast supporters, so if you’ve been waiting for the right time to become a monthly supporter, this is it. 

And if you can’t make it to the live Zoom event, don’t worry, we’ll record the whole thing and share it with supporters afterward. If you are already a supporter, check your email for the registration information, and if you’d like to become a supporter, you can just go to QuakerPodcast.com and click support in the top right corner. Thank you so much for making this show possible. 

 And now here’s my conversation with Quaker historian Max Carter,

Max Carter 

So in many ways Quakers had an enormous impact on speech patterns, on culture and architecture, understandings of marriage, education, child rearing in in the United States, and not necessarily embedded in law, but when you’re essentially in charge of almost half the colonies, it’s going to have an impact.

Zack Jackson 

Welcome to Thee Quaker Podcast. I’m Zack Jackson. 

Today is a very special episode, as I am joined by Quaker historian, Max Carter. 

We are quickly coming up on The United State’s 250th anniversary, and Max has been giving a series of lectures called “How the Quakers Invented America” which caught our eye. So, before we get into the details, Max, welcome to the show! Can you tell us a little bit about that provocative title. 

Max Carter 

Well, many years ago, when I was gainfully employed at Guilford College, I became aware of a Quaker Seminary professor and syndicated columnist David Yount, who wrote a book called How the Quakers Invented America. I was not aware that we invented America. I thought America existed for a long, long time, even Quakers. That’s a whole other thing, but I had David come down speak at Guilford, and I got his book, and I was fascinated by his articulation of some of the ways that Quakers impacted the culture of what became the United States, and you know, he admitted that the title of the book was pretty much tongue in cheek. We didn’t really invent America, but in very profound ways, Quakers had a very outsized impact on the legal structure of what became the United States the lead up in many ways to the revolution and in cultural identity, and so when I’ve been speaking out and about on this 250th anniversary of the start of the Revolutionary War and the signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776 I use that evocative title, and, and admit that we didn’t necessarily invent the United States.

Zack Jackson 

Okay, got it. So Quakers didn’t all just get together and dream up this exclusively Quaker country, but you’ve argued that Quakers and Quaker values were far more central to the founding of this nation than most people maybe realize. And I might be biased, because I live in Pennsylvania, but William Penn was a big part of that intentionality, right? 

Max Carter 

Well, one of the major impacts on the culture and legal structure of what became the United States, of course, is William Penn’s Holy Experiment in Pennsylvania, and I want to add that some Quaker historians have commented that Holy Experiment can be understood in two ways. When Penn received the charter for what became the colony of Pennsylvania from King Charles the Second in repayment of a debt owed by his father to his father, that is, he described it as a holy experiment, and that’s usually understood to be come to Pennsylvania, and you know, look at this experiment in organizing our political and religious and cultural life around Quaker understandings.

But some say perhaps, given the fact back then that Quakers use the term experiment as experimentally one new truth experimentally, which we would understand today as experientially, so in that understanding of the word Penn may have been saying, come to Pennsylvania, where we have organized our life around these Quaker ideals and experience that. 

It’s not just an experiment, as if we don’t know the outcome. It’s come and experience the reality and the truth of this, and so what was part of that holy experiment? We can look at the frame of government written in 1682 as Penn organized that colony, and here are some of the main aspects of that frame of government. It was a representative government, there wasn’t a monarchy, there wasn’t a king there, wasn’t divine right. It would free people met and chose how they would organize their life together. There were regular elections, there were laws that governed how they would live together. There was public education. You didn’t have to be wealthy to provide your children with education. There in Philadelphia, to this day, you’ve got William Penn Charter School, I think, 1689 And then there was Friends Select School. William Penn Charter was a public school. Friends select school was select for Quaker children, that’s how it got its name. Both created, established in the same year.

Courts of justice, where people were tried according to laws. There’s this one wonderful story, possibly apocryphal, but we do know that Penn did not seek to have witches burned at the stake or hanged as they were in Salem, but there’s the story of a witch brought before William Penn people accusing her of witchcraft, and so the story goes. Penn said, Is it true that you are a witch? And she purportedly said, Yes, I am. And Penn again supposedly said, Well, is it true then that you fly around on a broom? And she responded, Yes, I do. To which Penn again probably apocryphally replied, We have no law against it now again, whether it’s true or not, we do know that he did not punish witches in Pennsylvania, but I love that story.

And other laws from the frame of government, taxation only by law, not just at the whim of a monarch who would impose tariffs, sorry, without legal permission to do so. Prompt and fair justice, habeas corpus, again, that probably goes back to William Penn and William Mead’s experience in the 1660s I believe it was when they were hauled into court for violating the law against gathering for Quaker worship there on Grace Church Street in London, and the judge ordered the trot, the jury to recess and bring back a guilty verdict and Penn told them as they left the courtroom, exercise your rights as free English men, and that became the famous Bushell’s case, the legal precedent for a jury bringing back a verdict of their own independent judgment that gets embedded in American law, trial by jury.

Zack Jackson 

So you’ve also talked about how Quaker values have sort of slipped into the foundation and become American values. I think I see it most often in our lack of power distance. Like, we don’t have the same respect for hierarchy as they do in Europe. That’s a Quaker thing, right? 

Max Carter 

Yeah, when you think about British society, even today it’s a class society, and there are rules and regulations about how you address the monarchy, you bow, you curtsy, you don’t turn your back on the king or the queen, and I was fascinated at Wimbledon when they’re talking about, you know, the tennis matches, not stuff, quite often the commentators are talking about the rules and regulation about how you approach the royal box because usually the queen or the king or princes and princesses and dukes and earls and all those kind of people are there in royal boxes and their protocols.

Well, 1980 my wife and I are leading the Earlham College London program, and we were with 23 Earlham students, and during spring break, one of our students learned that the horse show at Bath was being held, so she hides herself off to Bath to see the horse show, and she notices that Queen Elizabeth is over there in the royal box, and being a good Quaker from Earlham College, she just trots right over there with her camera, walks right up to the royal box, says, “Could I take your picture? snaps your picture, heads back, “You don’t do that, you don’t do that. She wasn’t shot or hold off, but that’s the Quaker attitude. 

The Quakers were in charge of almost half the original American colonies. Several terms of government, I think 36 or so, in Rhode Island, Jersey, both East and West Jersey, of course, Pennsylvania, Delaware comes out of Pennsylvania, the Carolinas. What became North and South Carolina was a Quaker colonies, Quaker assemblies, Quaker governors, Quaker constitutions, and the people who filled those colonies, the Quakers came from areas in England and Scotland that had certain patterns of speech, very plain, direct speech, and the Quakers brought their speech styles plain, direct, honest. of their understanding of honesty in the marketplace, single price, we don’t haggle their plain dress, their lack of obeisance to authorities of. Their understanding of marriage is based on love and not for political advantage, or to maintain certain lines, or to create houses of importance. You married for love, and you raised children with love, and you treated them as also little adults, you know, not not to be seen and not heard, but you know they’re important little adults here in education, important both for boys and girls, and those sorts of influences, as well as simplicity and construction.

Look at the meeting houses, look at the kind of houses Quakers built, and you look at some of the houses built in Virginia and Boston and South Carolina, these mansions, these huge pieces of ego, the Quaker style of architecture, you can see all through Southern Virginia into North Carolina, back up into the Midwest, two-story white frame house, central hallway, rooms on either side, two chimneys, very plain, so in many ways Quakers had an enormous impact on speech patterns, on culture and architecture, understandings of marriage, education, child rearing in in the United States, and not necessarily embedded in law, but when you’re essentially in charge of almost half the colonies, it’s going to have an impact.

Zack Jackson 

We’re going to take a quick break. When we return, Quaker values get put to the test as the American colonies take up arms in the name of independence. What happens when Quakers go to war, and can those who refuse to fight still have an impact? Stay tuned, 

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Zack Jackson
Hey Friends,

You may have heard us mention World Quaker Day, which will be on October 4th 2026. This year the Friends World Committee for Consultation is planning a massive global online worship meeting, themed Let Peace Be Among Us.

The worship is planned to begin at 14:00 UTC and to last for at least 8 hours, with each hour dedicated to a part of the world where prayers for peace are particularly needed. Two of these places include Cuba and in the Middle East, whose Yearly Meetings have been indefinitely cancelled as a direct result of injustice and war.

The plan is to reach across many time zones from the Americas to New Zealand. Come for one hour, or come for all. Find everything you need to take part – including worship prompts, a poster, and peace-themed songs – at worldquakerday.org. 

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Zack Jackson

So in your talks you mentioned Thomas Paine. And for our listeners who might not be familiar, Paine was a prolific writer during this period. His pamphlets, Common Sense being the most widely known, are credited with sparking and fueling the American revolution, and many of his ideas would also frame the public discourse as America was getting started. He took a lot of the ideas that were circulating among social philosophers and made them palatable for everyday folks. I know that he was not a practicing Quaker, but a lot of his ideas came from Quakerism, right?

Max Carter 

Thomas Paine’s father was a Quaker. He was raised in England and came to America in 1774 so pretty late in the game, where he became friends of Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Rush, and his book Common Sense. Of course, I also remember from my high school US history books had an enormous impact on the revolutionary cause he believed, and again some historians trace this to his Quaker upbringing. He believed that people are sovereign, not a monarch, that individual freedom, again authority. That Quaker understanding of where does proper authority come from, here again, that kind of Quaker understanding of the world made new, which you see in the early Quaker emphasis on the inward apocalypse, that that new world order had come in their own inward understanding, and that would eventually come in its outward form, and what Paine sought was what some have described as a secularized version of Penn’s holy experiment. Let’s take those values in a more secular direction, but see that holy experiment realized in the new work, new world order. Horace Payne broke with Quakers over the peace testimony, and now here, importantly, he had an understanding of I’ve heard Quakers today articulate in looking at a world kind of gone crazy where you know the United States takes up military action against the evil empire or evil elsewhere, and Payne articulated the same thing I have heard Quakers today say in justifying going to war, and here’s Paine’s quote: Unless the whole world lay aside its arms, I take up my musket now. Again, I have heard very good Quakers say that ideally the Quaker peace testimony should be followed, but in an evil world, and among evangelical Quakers, you hear this until Christ comes, we have to respond to evil with with violence and

Zack Jackson 

You were on an episode earlier this season called, “Are Quakers Pacifists”?, and we talked about how the Quaker Peace Testimony is more complicated than, just, “don’t be violent”. There have always been questions about whether or not there are specific circumstances where violence is unfortunate but necessary, and the Revolutionary War was one of those moments, right? How did a people who are generally committed to nonviolence approach a war like this? 

Max Carter 

When you look at Quakers, though, during the Revolutionary War, of course, the vast majority choose not to take up the musket, and I don’t know how Bill Kashatus comes up with these numbers that he made. I don’t know where he gets him, but he said that at the time of the Revolutionary War, there were 220,000 and 150,000 Quakers in the colonies of those only 1276 were disowned for their participation in the revolution, because on 758 of them for fighting, 239 for paying taxes and fines to the colonial government, 125 for taking a loyalty test, 69 for assisting the war effort in some way, 32 for pursuing public office, and 42 disowned for various celebratory activities, or watching drills, or otherwise being happy about what was going on. I don’t know where he gets these numbers, but I trust Bill.

So, anyway, 1276 out of between 120,000 150,000 you know, is not a lot, but we did get the free Quaker movement out of that, and the free Quakers took that Quaker understanding of authority and said, you know, the light in our consciences is just as valid as the light in your consciences, and the light in our consciences leads us to Thomas Paine’s understanding is maybe a short term war leads to a long term peace, and that the Lamb’s War that early Quakers talked about the first generation of Quakers is for a transformation of the world, and isn’t that what we’re trying to do, transform the world, that secularized version of the holy experiment, it’s a realized eschatology, so in their. Were understanding they were being true to that Quaker belief in the Lambs War leading to a transformation of the world, but in short-term war methods.

And you get some pretty significant folk who joined the Free Quakers, Samuel Wetherell Jr. His textile mill provided the uniforms for the Continental Army. Owen Biddle, I was a merchant, was the deputy commissioner for forage for the army, because again, forage is an important term. There you didn’t have a whole bunch of supermarkets out and about. Betsy Ross, who became a member of the Free Quakers after the Revolutionary War, think her membership was in the 1780s but during the Revolutionary War, I’ve read some historians who say she is possibly the beautiful young widow who distracted a Hessian leader, causing his forces not to be available for the consequential battle of Trenton, so maybe Betsy played a role there, but she didn’t join the Free Quakers until 1785 but she, her death in 1834 was pretty much the last member of the Free Quakers. The Free Quaker meeting was laid down in 1836 getting us still stands there in Independence Mall, but she may have been the last member there. So again a lot of significance of Quakers, both leading up to the revolution and some Quakers in the revolution.

At this same time, just down the road at the center, friends meeting Matthew Osborne, who was an expert gunsmith. Quakers had about 19 gun shops here, because in the 1700s you had to keep critters out of the corn field, put meat on the table, and Quakers were expert gunsmiths. Their integrity and their precision made their rifles very popular. It’s known as the Jamestown rifle from the many gunsmiths around the Jamestown area. Here, Matthew Osborne was one of those expert Quaker gunsmiths, and after the Battle of New Garden, Guilford Courthouse, when he learned that one of his neighbors, who had purchased one of his rifles, had used it in that fighting, Osborne went back to him, purchased the rifle from him, went home, and broke it, so would never be used to take human life again.

So you have again the complexity of Quaker response, and how people related to what was a devastating, devastating war here when Battle of New Garden was fought around the meeting house, the friends of New Garden had already determined they need to build a larger meeting house. It became a huge center of Quakerism in North Carolina. They outgrown their meeting house. Well, they had cut down trees, they had sawed the lumber, they had wood lumber ready to build a larger meeting house. When the war broke out, those boards were used, scattered throughout the graveyard.

Max Carter 

After the meeting houses used, the field hospital was chock full of the wounded to lay wounded soldiers on who bled out on on this lumber, but yeah, after the war and after all the death and destruction, it took 10 years before that lumber could be incorporated into a new meetinghouse. I mean, that’s how long it took to recover from the devastation of the war, so it hit him hard.

Zack Jackson 

Max. As, as we’re wrapping up, I, I wonder if you have any thoughts about the future of America. How would you like to see Quaker values reflected in our modern times and into the future?

Max Carter 

I would love to see those early ideals of no kings, for example, reemphasize that in America we don’t have kings, we don’t have a monarchy, we don’t have the kind of loyalty demanded of leadership that we’re beginning to see now, but that’s the kind of attitude that I would love to see America have today, that William Penn put into his frame of government, into his charter of privileges. We are not above the law. I and my sons may own this colony, so to speak, or inherit it, but we are not above the law. We will be a representative government. We will follow the law, and we will try to make of this colony a holy experiment, not only in embedding the ideals of Quakerism, but also in providing people from all over the world to come and experience the reality and the benefits of a life guided by the Spirit, guided by our Christian ideals and our understanding as Quakers of what the Lord requires of us, which is not to amass great wealth or great privilege, but to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God.

Zack Jackson 

Max. I just want to say a huge thank you for taking the time to share a little bit of the fascinating history of this nation, and, and all of the ways that Quakers influenced its founding. 

A reminder to those listening that this was just a taste of the history that Max has compiled on this topic, and he will be going into more depth on July 7th 2026 at 7PM live on Zoom for podcast supporters. He’ll also be answering your questions, so come prepared! If you would like to become a monthly supporter, you can go to quakerpodcast.com/support, and we’ll send you a link to the event and a recording afterwards. That’s quakerpodcast.com/support. 

Thank you for listening, and thank you again to Max Carter for taking the time to share this history with us. For discussion questions and a transcript of today’s episode, make sure you check out Quakerpodcast.com and while you’re there, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss a thing.

This episode was hosted, produced and edited by me Zack Jackson, Jon Watts wrote and produced the music.

Thee Quaker Podcast is a part of Thee Quaker Project. We are a nonprofit Quaker media organization dedicated to giving Quakerism a platform for the 21st Century.

If you like what we’re up to, please consider becoming a monthly supporter. In addition to the live event on the 7th, there is also plenty of extra content for supporters that we are adding to regularly. You can go to Quakerpodcast.com and click support in the top right corner.

And now your daily Quaker message as read by Grace Gonglewski 

Grace Gonglewski 

True godliness does not turn men out of the world, but enables them to live better in it, and excites their endeavors to mend it, not hide their candle under a bushel, but set it upon a table in a candlestick. William Penn, 1682 “No Cross, No Crown”.

Zack Jackson 

To get Quaker wisdom in your inbox every day, go to dailyquaker.com That’s DailyQuaker.com

Hosted, produced, and edited by Zack Jackson.

Original music and sound design by Jon Watts (Listen to more of Jon’s music here.)

This season’s cover art is by Todd Drake

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