Our Top 5 Episodes of Season 3

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1. What specific moment or story from this past season continues to echo in your mind, and what might that lingering thought be trying to teach you?
2. Which conversation felt like it only scratched the surface, and where are you feeling called to explore more deeply?
3. How has your personal understanding of “prophetic witness” shifted, and where in your own life might you be resisting a call to speak or act?

Zack Jackson 

Hey everyone, I’m Zack Jackson.

Jon Watts

And I’m Jon Watts.

Zack Jackson 

And welcome to a very special bonus episode of Thee Quaker Podcast.

Jon Watts

That’s right. We are officially wrapping up season three of the podcast, which at thirty episodes is our longest season yet.

Zack Jackson 

Yeah, and what a year it’s been. We decided to center this season around the idea of Quaker prophetic witness, looking at folks like Benjamin Lay, who let their faith drive them to take some really radical public action.

Jon Watts

Yeah, there have been some great stories and our listeners really showed up for it. This show now has over two hundred and fifty thousand downloads. And this year alone we more than doubled our monthly supporters. We are so appreciative to our listeners and our supporters for making this show possible.

Zack Jackson 

Yeah, over this past year I’ve had just so many wonderful interactions. We opened up a Discord channel, so I’ve been able to have conversations with people. Folks were always sending me great emails and we had our first live supporter event last month. But I think my favorite interaction was when I was in Ireland and someone recognized me by my voice. And when I turned around, they told me, Hey, you don’t look the way that I imagined you would.

Jon Watts

Right, yeah, ’cause it’s audio only. Well, did they tell you what they were imagining you would look like?

Zack Jackson

No, honestly, I think they were a little embarrassed at that point, but that’s the beauty of podcasts, right? Like we tell audio stories that turn into pictures in people’s heads and it’s different for every individual.

Jon Watts

Right, which is why it’s kind of fun when we go on field trips. We did a couple of those this year and we really tried to bring you into new spaces and unique meetings. For example, we went inside of a conservative meeting, we explored a completely digital church, and we even sat together for a full hour of immersive silent worship.

Zack Jackson 

Yeah, and we got to talk with some really weighty friends along the way, like Parker Palmer and David LaMotte and Eileen Flanagan.

Jon Watts

So much to reflect on. You know, with 30 episodes in the bank just this year, it’s a lot to digest. So today we’re officially putting a bow on season three and starting our work on season four. But we wanted to just take a moment to reflect a little bit with a top five countdown.

Zack Jackson 

Yeah, so we’re gonna play some of our favorite clips, look back on the best moments of the year, and maybe inspire you to dive back into the archives to keep you company while we work on season four.

Jon Watts

Awesome. Let’s let’s get into it, Zack.

Zack Jackson

Let’s go.

Zack Jackson

Coming at number 5 is our January 27th Episode called “Why Are Quakers Pacifists?”. In this episode, we explored the Quaker Peace Testimony as it pertains specifically to war. We talked about conscientious objection, alternative service, and even some Quakers who rejected pacifism and took up arms against evils that they thought demanded a violent response. It’s a complicated subject with deep roots that we will certainly revisit again and again. When I listened back to this episode recently, I was struck by this moment with Tim Gee who is the general secretary of Friends World Committee for Consultation. He was telling me that in 2030, they are planning to celebrate the 2,000th anniversary of Jesus’ sermon on the mount with a program called “Blessed are the Peacemakers”. I asked him what he thought 2030 might look like…

#5: Why Are Quakers Pacifists: 

Tim Gee
One news story says that we’ll be in World War Three by then, and the other news story says that there’ll be some kind of tentative, but fragile peace in a number of the hot wars of the world. But you know, whichever of those is our world? In 2030 we’re going to need people who know about peace, who are motivated for peace, who want to work for peace, who want to advocate that resources are put into peacemaking, but we need people who, in the essence of their being, or even from beyond their essence of their being, have something coming into them that they can reflect out into the world that works for peace. That’s what we’re going to need to get through this, and that’s something that a faith community can support and offers, and Quakerism is one of those faith communities that’s doing that at present.

Zack Jackson
Whether we are facing World War III or a fragile peace, the mandate is the same. We need people who know how to weave our common threads back together. I asked Tim what his ultimate hope was. Not a strategy, not a policy, but a dream.

Tim Gee
You know, I have an answer. It’s just, I almost daren’t say it, because it seems so distant from where we are. But I do believe that there’s that of God in everyone. And I also believe that if people see that of God in their neighbor, then they won’t be able to harm them. I also believe that the vast majority of the world’s Christians, and indeed the vast majority of people of faith in the world believe that war is against the will of God. And sometimes I think that asking people to act on that seems too much to ask. And then I catch myself and I wonder, why do I think that’s too much to ask? Surely it should be exactly what we should be asking. So I suppose my dream is that people of faith won’t kill one another or anybody else. For that matter, I think that’s my dream. And I can’t work out if it’s extremely modest or if it’s, you know, wild, beyond our dreams, beyond our imaginations. Maybe it’s both. I wonder if, if listeners to this podcast pray, I might ask that you might pray for such a thing, if that’s a way that you pray, or if the way that you pray is to open your heart and listen, that you might open your heart and listen for what role you might have in This, in this great change that needs to happen.

Zack Jackson
Next up at number 4 is our May 19th interview with Quaker Author Parker Palmer. Parker’s books have sold over 2.5 million copies, and for many people, he was their first exposure to Quakerism. Actually, he was MY first exposure to Quakerism when I read his book, “Let Your Life Speak” in seminary. Jon asked Parker about this book, about how it has been received over the years, and about how he thinks about success. 

#4: Quaker Author Parker Palmer on How to Let Your Life Speak

Parker Palmer  

Yeah, I hear a lot about it, and I hear a lot about the chapter on depression. I think of all the of all the words I’ve written, probably those have packed more punch per square inch than most others. But what really interests me about your question, is the seduction, the temptation of doing, of doing something in order to achieve a particular result, and most often in this culture, the result is, goes under the general title or label of success, right? In fact, there’s a very important piece of my thinking about social change that has to do with this, which is that we live in a culture, this American culture of ours, that is always asking the question of, are you succeeding? And in the metrics for success are very narrow, very mechanistic, very materialistic, and people want to ask that question every day, as someone has said, it’s like, we plant a flower and then we rip it up the next day to see how the root system is doing. And therefore flowers never grow. 

The problem with success or effectiveness being the primary norm of our work is that if we are truly called to take on big tasks like love, truth and justice, we will never achieve success in our lifetimes, I have a bunch of heroes historically who’ve devoted their lives to that kind of thing, love truth and justice kind of thing, and not one of them was able to die saying, I’m sure glad I took on that task. So now everyone in the world can check it off their to do list. If we live and die by effectiveness and success, the results are very predictable. We will start taking on smaller and smaller tasks, because they’re the only ones you can get you can be effective with. 

So I think, while I don’t want to give up on effectiveness, that’s a real world question that we have to hold responsibly, I think we need a higher standard, and for me, I call the standard faithfulness, which I define very simply. Have I been faithful to my own gifts? Have I been faithful to an honest observation of needs in the world? And have I been faithful to those points at which my gifts might intersect those needs on a path of service. You know, if I can say yes, even in a small way, at the end of the day to that question, I think on balance, I’m probably doing okay, and probably can maintain some sort of witness for love, truth and justice, without racking myself on on guilt for not have not getting the job done, which then leads to burnout, and me exiting the field.

Zack Jackson
We’re gonna take a quick break. But when we come back, we count down the top three episodes of season 3. These are the episodes that generated the most emails, the most debate, and the most downloads all year. We’re getting into politics, we’re getting into the future, and we’re getting into the very core of Quaker worship. Stay tuned.

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Zack Jackson 

Hey friends, Zack here. I love getting messages from you, and recently I got an email from Ashley Long in Edmonton, Alberta, that caught my eye. By day, she’s a chemical lab tech who tests breathing systems, and until recently, didn’t think too much about religion.

Ashley Long 

And yeah, all I knew from about Quakers was I read the books Outlander and there’s some Quaker characters in that. Yeah it just occurred to me one day I was like, “Is that still around? Do they? Maybe I should look them up”, and I just started on Google, Wikipedia, and I’m and I’m just reading about you know some very broad overviews of what they believe.

Zack Jackson 

The more she read, the more she resonated with Quakerism. She even found a Quaker meeting not too far from her house. But there was just one problem.

Ashley Long 

I’m like, okay, maybe I’ll just pop in. And I was like, I don’t know. I’m not really good with social situations, and this is a very small group. Like, if it was like another church, you could like sit in the back of a pew somewhere and kind of observe without being observed yourself.

Zack Jackson 

That’s when Ashley discovered Thee Quaker Podcast, and as she listened to real voices tell their stories, she found the courage to actually walk into her local meeting in Edmonton for the very first time. I asked her what that first meeting felt like.

Ashley Long 

It was very calming, like there’s just this feeling that I was, you know, being enveloped with this warmth and being surrounded by people who were believing and just caring, and I just felt very much at home.

Zack Jackson 

But what really struck me about our conversation was her profound sense of connection to you, the listener, and why she decided to become a monthly supporter.

Ashley Long 

I was getting so much out of it, and just I enjoyed it, and I was, and it opened me up, and I was just so happy to have found it. I was like, more people need to have this experience, if at all possible. I guess I’m just very happy to be part of this community now, and I’m glad that everybody, you know, at Thee Quaker and who is Quaker and is even just listening to this podcast. But I now know you’re out there, and I’m happy to have not met you, but to be part of your community. And what can I do to help that and help other people have this great experience that I’ve had? And that’s through supporting. I can afford 10 bucks a month, so that’s what I’m gonna do.

Zack Jackson 

Ashley’s $10 a month is like leaving a porch light on for someone else who is searching in the dark. It ensures that when someone out there googles, “Are Quakers still around?”, we are here, ready to answer with stories, history, and a welcoming community. If this podcast has been a light for you, or if you want to help others find their way to a meeting like Ashley did, would you consider joining her? Head on over to quakerpodcast.com/support. That’s quakerpodcast.com/support Thank you so much, and now back to the show.

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Zack Jackson
Welcome back. At number three is our June 23rd episode called “A Quaker Response to Christian Nationalism”. This episode was born out of a profound piece of writing by Quaker civil rights lawyer, Scott Holmes. Scott drew inspiration from the Confessing Church in 1930’s Germany and drafted a modern declaration to clearly state what the church should actually stand for today. One of the most powerful moments in his declaration is right at the beginning in which he claims the importance of truth in a post truth society

#3: A Quaker Response to Christian Nationalism

Scott Holmes  

We believe the power of truth is rooted in love and unity. We aim to live a life that exemplifies these values. We believe the sinful idolatry of political power and economic wealth manufacture false division within the human family and exploits prejudice to seize power and accumulate and concentrate wealth for the few. We are against the way political idolatry labels leads to babble and the confusion of speech, quote alternative facts unquote propaganda. propaganda and lies. We oppose efforts to manipulate and control people with lies and propaganda. We believe the truth will set us free from efforts to distort reality with false narratives of the past and the present. 

The Bible verse that the truth will set you free by itself. That phrase sounds great, like just give me the freedom. I love me some truth, but exactly what that means and how that looks is really powerful. For example, one of the ways people can abuse each other in a relationship. The worst is to gaslight each other. It’s an abusive practice to try to convince your partner that something is true when it’s not. That’s abuse, and it really hurts a person’s self-esteem. It hurts their ability to choose. It even impacts your memory if you are, if you are subjected to gaslighting for extended periods of time and don’t share a consensus view of reality, you can lose your memory of that period of time because you have been gaslit so bad. 

Well, when you extrapolate that practice across a community and use lies and propaganda and alternative facts and double speak and babble and blasphemy to try to convince people that lawful protesters are actual domestic terrorists, then you are robbing people of their reality, and you’re robbing us of our history, and our agency, and our ability to act. So, when we say, when I say, and when the Bible says the truth will set you free, it literally means by removing the falsehood by ending the. Babble by getting rid of the gas lighting, it enables you to act according to your conscience as a full human being, and see clearly what you are facing, and choose with your own agency and your the agency of your community to react to it in a powerful way

Zack Jackson 

At number 2, we’re going back to our March 10th episode on “Quakers and AI”. I gotta tell you. I don’t think I’ve ever been more nervous to hit submit on an episode in my life! Generative AI has fundamentally changed the way we live our lives over the past few years, and I have yet to meet someone who doesn’t have an opinion on it. And you know, amidst a lively discussion on our Discord server, one of our listeners pointed out to me that despite what AI companies would have you believe, none of this is inevitable nor are we beholden to accept the worldviews of a few Silicon Valley influencers as gospel truth. As Quaker author and professor Gray Cox pointed out, there is more than one way to think about thinking. 

#2: Quakers and AI

Gray Cox  

One of the ways that I’ve framed this is, I’ve done a lot of work in peace studies, and I found Gandhi really, really informative. And one of his quotes from Hind Swaraj is sort of manifesto in it. He said, We must always remember that civilization is not an incurable disease, but English people currently are suffering from it. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized, you know, there’s really some really profound truth in that, that not just the English people, but our civilization, is characterized by this kind of monological reasoning. You know, in economics and politics and elsewhere, that leads to violence, to territorial aggression, to colonialism, to profit seeking, to the restructuring of human personalities, so that instead of being, you know, collaborative, loving creatures. We’re grasping, greedy, competitive creatures. That’s not by nature, that’s by construct, by our civilization, you know. And so we have to really take, take seriously the idea that we are currently afflicted by this curable, but very pernicious disease.

Zack Jackson  

If our civilization is suffering from a disease of machine-like thinking obsessed with speed, efficiency and profit, then Gray believes we already have the cure, we just haven’t been using it.

Gray Cox  

But there’s another form of reasoning that we deal with every day that hasn’t been focused on and trying to develop AI. It’s not what we could call dialogical reasoning. It’s the kind that comes up when people face dilemmas. And instead of saying, Well, I’ve got to choose, I’m a utilitarian or I’m a Kantian, I’m of this ideology or that, instead they say, Well, how can we reconcile these views? How can we look at this from different points of view and integrate them in some way? 

And methods for doing that have been researched at length in the last 50 years or so in studies of negotiation, mediation, dispute resolution, conflict transformation, peacemaking. And they include studies like Michael Sheeran’s study of Quaker process beyond majority rule. And they also include studies of feminist approaches to sort of consensus based decision making. And they include studies of indigenous communities all around the world who use dialogical kinds of approaches, where, when they face a dilemma, instead of forcing a choice based on one set of premises, they try to come up with a third alternative. And I think Quaker process at its best, provides one really powerful example, exemplar of that kind of process,

Zack Jackson
Which brings us, perfectly, to our Number 1 most downloaded episode of Season 3. The one topic that every search engine associates with Friends, and the very thing the AI can’t compute: Why Do Quakers Worship in Silence?

It’s the defining characteristic of unprogrammed Quaker worship, but it can also be intimidating for newcomers. So, for this episode, I took a friend who had never experienced silent worship to a meeting to get her honest response. Before we went, I called up our executive producer, Jon Watts, for advice. I asked him if after all these years, he ever struggles with the silence of quaker worship…

#1: Why do Quakers Worship in Silence? 

Jon Watts  

So do Quakers struggle with silent worship? Is that? Is that a challenging practice? Is it? Is it sometimes hard? I would say it is hard every time. There is no time where I don’t struggle. The goal with sitting in silence the first period of every Quaker Meeting for Worship, for me, is sitting with my thoughts that I’ve been avoiding for a whole week by distracting myself and keeping busy and doing other stuff. And so there’s a serious challenge there. Every single week, it’s like, you know, it’s like, going to the gym or something where, like, it’s not supposed to be easy. It’s not, it’s, it’s you’re, you’re always stretching yourself. And so it’s not, it’s not sitting down in silence that I’m like yearning for all week. It’s what happens on the other side of it, which is when you get centered down, when you have this experience of a gathered meeting, when you have this sacred, mystical experience of sitting in a room with a bunch of other people, all trying to get past that, you know, barrier of thoughts and distractions into this sacred space, it’s transformational.

Zack Jackson  

So what would you suggest for somebody who is going to an unprogrammed meeting for worship, on how to prepare ahead of time, how to use the time?

Jon Watts  

Yeah, I think my first piece of advice is just to be patient. Be patient with yourself. Be patient with the experience. You might come to Quaker Meeting for Worship expecting to have a deep, mystical experience, and then find that you’re just spending time going through your shopping list or something, and and then there’s a meta level of thinking where you get you get disappointed or mad at yourself or frustrated that you’re just thinking about your shopping list. And I want to talk to that meta level of yourself. Don’t just let just let that happen. Let your mind think about what your mind is going to think about, and don’t try and control it. At some point, if you’re patient, and if you’re not trying to clamp down on that, you’re going to move through it. It happens to me every meeting for worship. I start off thinking, like, really, is this what I came to Center City for and gave up half of my Sunday for just to sit here and, like, think about stuff and and the answer is, no, that’s not, that’s not what I came for. But it’s a, it’s a watch pot boiling a little bit if you are, are waiting for it to happen, if you’re just watching like, is it going to be mystical? Mystical now? Is it going to be transformative? Now. What about now? What about now? Why isn’t it mystical yet it’s not it’s not gonna happen like that. Just give it time. Just give it some time. 

Zack Jackson
Thank you so much for listening to this and every other episode of season 3! We could not do this work without you.

So as we start working on Season 4, we want to hear from you. We’ve put together a brief listener survey to help us make this next season even better. You can find the link right in the show notes or at Quakerpodcast.com.

This episode was hosted, produced, and edited by me, Zack Jackson. Jon Watts wrote and produced the music.

Thee Quaker Podcast is a part of Thee Quaker Project. We are a nonprofit Quaker media organization dedicated to giving Quakerism a platform for the 21st Century.

If you believe in the work we’re doing, please consider becoming a monthly supporter at  Quakerpodcast.com/support. Your donation makes this work possible. 

We’ll be taking a short break, but we will be back in your feeds in September. Until then, here is your daily Quaker message as read by Grace Gonglewski. 

Grace Gonglewski

“Interior soulful silence shows us that we can live at different levels. We can be outwardly busy while inwardly talking and listening to God. We can be changing the oil in our car or cooking supper or giving a presentation at work, while at the same time, if we practice the way of holy silence, we remain centered in our souls and in communion with Christ.” J. Brent Bill. 2005.

Zack Jackson 

To get Quaker wisdom in your inbox every day, just go to DailyQuaker.com. That’s DailyQuaker.com.