“Where You Go, I Will Go” with Brenda Esch

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Discussion Questions

1. Brenda’s sermon contrasts the “legitimate fear of the unknown” with the reassurance that “you are accompanied by love”. Think about a major transition in your own life. What fears did you have, and what form did “accompaniment” take to help you through them?
2. In the interview, Brenda describes her process for preparing a message not as planning, but as a form of “deep and active listening to the community, to spirit”. How do you practice this kind of deep listening in your own life, whether at work, with family, or in moments of reflection?
3. Brenda mentions that the programmed parts of worship are meant to “cultivate that soil” for the open, unprogrammed silence that follows. Outside of a formal worship setting, what practices, routines, or activities help you cultivate the soil for quiet, meaningful reflection in your own life?

Zack Jackson  

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Brenda Esch  

Do not be afraid little ones and grown ups. Do not be afraid of the noise. Do not be afraid of the newness. Do not be afraid of the work to be done. Do not be afraid of the burden, not because those things are not real, but because you cannot be whole if you live in fear, and because you are accompanied by us, you are accompanied by love. 

Zack Jackson  

Hello everyone. Zack Here. Every fifth episode or so, we like to take you inside a Quaker meeting for worship to hear a vocal ministry that was given and introduce you to the meeting where it was given. Today is a special episode because we’re going back to New Garden Friends Meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina where we did our first vocal ministry episode back in season 1. When we last visited, Ashley Wilcox was pastoring them through a period of transition that eventually led them to call Brenda Esch as their next pastoral minister. So we connected with Brenda, and she graciously allowed us to bring you a recent vocal ministry that she prepared which is all about that familiar combination of hope and fear that comes with transition. We’re going to bring you her full message in the second half of the show, but first, I wanted to understand her process of discernment, and how all of the pieces of a semi-programmed meeting for worship fit together. So Brenda and I connected the day after she gave her prepared message, while it was still fresh on her mind…

Brenda Esch  

My name is Brenda Esch, and I’m the pastoral minister at New Garden Friends Meeting.

Zack Jackson  

Now how long have you been in that position?

Brenda Esch  

I am just about to celebrate my one year anniversary.

Zack Jackson  

That is fantastic. Congratulations. Thank you. New Garden was featured in season one of Thee Quaker Podcast. You were actually one of the first first meetings that we highlighted, and I believe at the time it was Ashley Wilcox was the interim.

Brenda Esch  

Yes.

Zack Jackson

So what led you here?

Brenda Esch  

Oh, it’s such a great kind of unexpected story. I think about how I got here, I actually listened to that podcast as I considered the possibility. So thank you. But I had many, many years in Quaker education as a teacher and then as an administrator, and I always felt that I tried to emphasize the ministry in administration. So that was my stance in that work. I concluded my service as Head of School at Friends School of Wilmington in Wilmington, North Carolina. And I did so with a sense of completion and celebration. And I went to a remote location in northern Indiana where I’m from. I’m from Richmond, Indiana, but there’s a cottage on a tiny lake in northern Indiana that I have responsibilities for. I’m its steward. And I went there, and I did not have an extended plan except to rest and sort of reground myself. 

I didn’t call it retirement. I called it rewirement.

And had no sense of okay, and then I’ll get back to work, or then I’ll do this next after I do this self appointed sabbatical, it just felt like the next step. And within that year, a couple of friends from this area and from New Garden reached out, alerted me, wondered with me about this role as pastoral minister, Ashley was here as a two year interim, and they were in the midst of a search. And initially I, you know, I was, I was tired, not yet rewired. So, I appreciated the thought, because they were really beautiful. Seeing me in something other than the role I had been in previously. And that’s what Quakers do, so well – see each other’s gifts. 

So I was, I was glad about that, but it was too soon for me to consider anything else. But then, as the year moved on, we got to the spring, and the search here was continuing. And I actually attended a meeting here that April and Francisco Burgos, who’s the executive director of Pendle Hill, was visiting here and was offering the prepared message. It was a really abundant, beautiful morning. I went for a walk in the Guilford College woods that afternoon, and the next day, I applied, because it just felt as Francisco said, this is your water. And I thought, well, I better. I better dip my toe in. So I did, and one thing led to another, and I just felt a real connection with this place. I had gone to Guilford College, which is across the street. I knew friends here in this place, and my parents, who have since passed, were both known here by people here. So it was this kind of coming back to a place, coming full circle to where I had gone to school, where people knew my family, and where there was real possibility.

Zack Jackson  

What does your process of preparation look like when you are putting together one of these meetings? And maybe you can also help the people at home to understand the difference between the two types of meetings for worship that you do, and then what your process looks like of creating those spaces and those meetings.

Brenda Esch  

New Garden Friends Meeting is a semi-program meeting, which means that we have some aspects that we plan ahead of time, a hymn and so forth, and then I or someone else, offer a prepared message, vocal ministry that we have thought about written in advance, prepared and are ready to offer. This is a part of the vocal ministry that may take place during the hour of a semi program meeting. And side note, I grew up in a semi program meeting in Richmond, Indiana. West Richmond Friends Meeting was where I came up. So to me, this is this kind of beautiful integration of unprogrammed worship and some sense of, you know, something to focus and in center on. In that sense, I don’t use any kind of lectionary, any kind of thing that says, Okay, this is what we’ll be doing this month. This is what we’ll be doing next month. And you know that may be in my future. Zach, first year here, but this year, what I’ve done is try to bring this sense of deep and active listening to the community, to spirit and listen for what needs to be spoken, what needs to be happening here, whether it’s on a Sunday or more broadly, and so for me, it has been, you know, a spiritual discipline of daily walks in the woods where I may listen to something, or I may listen to spirit, listen to the trees. 

I’m always listening, but sometimes it’s to others’ words. Sometimes it’s just to what I am hearing in the people around me, and usually from that experience, something begins to emerge. And so you know, this time of year, it was back to school. And I began to think about that, and really wanted to make sure that I was not just bringing my school self to the meeting, but really opening up to what it is that the community and the individuals within the community were experiencing, and how we could share that, share that sense of, you know, transition into something new.

Zack Jackson  

That’s that’s so interesting, how aware you are of, is this the word that spirit is bringing, or is this the word that Brenda is bringing? Because I’m a teacher and it’s back to school and my brain is moving to back to school. How do you do that work? How do you do that discernment?

Brenda Esch  

It’s around me. This sense of what this time of year is about is part of what’s happening here. There’s a college right across the street, there’s a Friends School right down the street. There are many people in this meeting that are parts of those communities. So I’m hearing from them how they’re doing, how the summer has gone, what they’re feeling as they go back into school. And I’ll just tell you that in this particular message, that was what I was holding. What I loved about that was this isn’t just about going back to school, it’s about opening ourselves up to new experience with vulnerability and with love and accompany each other in that, in that next thing. And it felt like my recent experience visiting Mexico City, and this sense of rhythm of this school year, and newness and transition all kind of came together as I walked and thought about it and began to write about it.

Zack Jackson  

Yeah, I could tell when I was listening to you, this is somebody whose words were intentional and I felt cared for because I knew your words were intentional. That’s maybe that’s the phrase that I was thinking when I was walking home, was that I felt like I was cared for and that I could trust you with my time. Talking to you a little bit beforehand and finding out that the rest of the meeting also was all tied together, and our listeners are going to hear the prepared remarks that you had, but that’s only a portion of what happened during the rest of the meeting for worship. Can you sort of tie it all together? Tell us about the reading and the music and the sort of everything, so we can get a sense of what it was like.

Brenda Esch  

What I chose to do very intentionally, and we have a lot of help with special music, so it’s not always up to me, but in this case, I had been a part of a singing circle in town that meets once a month, and so I asked a couple of people who also go to that singing circle to lead us in a song where you go, I will go, beloved. 

That song was in my mind. That tune was in my mind as I wrote. And so the refrain of where you go, I will go, beloved comes through in the message. It was very much present in me, in my heart, as I as I was writing,

Zack Jackson  

After the break, we’re heading to New Garden Friends Meeting to hear Brenda’s message. Stay tuned. 

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Zack Jackson: We get so many wonderful messages from people who have decided to support the podcast. But recently, I got a comment from a new supporter that really caught my eye. She said she was a new Quaker and that she found this podcast to be a helpful supplement to her in-person community. Her name is Ayana Gray, and I was so moved by her message that I invited her to chat. It turns out, her journey to Quakerism is one I think a lot of people can relate to.

Ayana Gray
I went to a Southern Baptist Church in Atlanta. As I got older, I found that Baptist doctrine, and specifically Southern Baptist doctrine, just wasn’t able to answer questions that I had in a satisfactory way. I felt my morals and my values shifting and not always aligning, and then that made me wonder, Am I a bad Christian? Am I a bad person? And so I kept identifying as a Christian, or a spiritual Christian, is what I would say. But I wasn’t going to church, and at some point, like I was on this journey trying to find a home, but at some points, I just thought, well, maybe, maybe Christianity is not it. Maybe there’s just not going to be a church that checks all the boxes for me. I was researching locally, like looking at different churches, and there was always just something. It felt like I always had to compromise something, and I just would give up and come back to it, and then one day it’s, funnily enough, like, this is a lot of people I’ve talked to have done this. 

I went on like, Belief Net, I think it’s .com or .org and just took, like, a quiz to say, to see, you know what faith most aligned with my values. Just kind of a last ditch effort, and I got liberal Quaker, which I was shocked by, because I had no knowledge of Quakers, any kind of Quakers, let alone liberal Quakers, started reading and just felt this immense relief, because I wasn’t having to compromise any of my values or beliefs. So I just felt like all the boxes were being checked. I felt this immense relief. I went to my local meeting. Everyone was extremely welcoming and kind, and there was just this peace. I felt very at home. I felt like I had always been a Quaker and just hadn’t had a word for it.

Zack Jackson: So how does the podcast fit into your journey? 

Ayana Gray

Anytime you’re joining a new anything, and especially a new faith, it can feel really daunting. People are using words you don’t know, terms you don’t know, and you feel kind of silly asking questions. So I always look for the accessible points. And this was one of those. This podcast was one of those places where I’m like, Okay, I don’t I don’t feel silly for it, like wondering and asking questions. I feel like I’m being talked to. Like, no pun intended like a friend,

I’m still very new, but I appreciate as I try to gather information and learn, I appreciate that the podcast is helping me apply Quaker practices and Quaker teachings to the real world and even what we’re experiencing as of this week.

Zack Jackson: I mean, that’s it right? That’s what we’re going for. Quaker stories and wisdom that are equally valuable no matter where you are on your journey. So what inspired you to take the next step? To go from a listener to a monthly supporter? 

Ayana Gray

Again, I just, I was able to, I’m able to listen and apply things to my everyday life, and it sits with me. And I want that to continue. And I know that, as much as dreams and wishes are wonderful, you need to be able to financially support these endeavors so that they can continue. It’s one thing to say, hey, thank you for what you do. It’s another thing to say, hey, I want here’s me giving something so that you guys can continue to do the great work you do.

Zack Jackson: Ayana, thank you. And thank you to all our supporters. You make this work possible. 

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Please visit our website at quakerpodcast.com and click “Support.” Thank you. And now, back to the show. 

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Brenda Esch  

Happy New Year. Happy New Year. 

We say happy new year on January 1, of course, and we sometimes take the opportunity then to make resolutions for the year ahead. We often also celebrate a new year on a birthday when we have completed our latest walk around the sun and we begin again. When you are in school as a child or as an adult, as a student or as a parent or as a grandparent or a teacher, you have this rhythm embedded in you a new start, a conclusion, and hopefully a Summer’s rest, a time to gain space between the logs of the fire, add oxygen, allow for embers, and then fan those embers into flames in time to start again, and now we welcome the new year full of things that have never been says Rilke. 

I chose to read the blessing and the chaos by Jan Richardson, to balance any romantic notions of a new beginning, there is something refreshing about starting something new. I did that about a year ago, but there is also heightened anxiety. What Thank you. That was great. Right on cue. Heightened anxiety, too many things to do, sadness that the summer is over, legitimate fear of the unknown. 

My first day of kindergarten is etched in my mind as a lonely day, at least a lonely start to the day our family had moved to a new neighborhood from a different state that summer, and I don’t remember. knowing any of the other kids, I do remember saying goodbye to my mom, saying hello to the kind teacher, looking around at all those other children, and then finding a quiet spot behind a piano that was jutting out from the wall and silently crying. We were in a basement classroom with high windows at the ground level from the outside, and unbeknownst to me, my mom looked down and saw my quiet tears through the window, and much to her credit, she kept moving. She trusted back in those good old days that I would make it. I’d make it through this initial fear. I’d connect with my classmates. I would be cared for by the teacher. I would find comfort, probably, in that rote memorization we were about to do and the chocolate milk in cartons during snack time. She didn’t have to be physically present for me to hear her song of accompaniment, where you go, I will go, beloved and just a side note. No, you need not go into the classroom with your child or linger in the dorm room. Don’t do it. Take a picture and wave with confidence, seeing your trust, seeing your trust in the community they are entering, will help them know they are safe. You have done your job. Go in peace. 

It is transition time into a brand new next thing for all of you, do not be afraid little ones and grown ups. Do not be afraid of the noise. Do not be afraid of the newness. Do not be afraid of the work to be done. Do not be afraid of the burden, not because those things are not real, but because you cannot be whole if you live in fear, and because you are accompanied by us, you are accompanied by Love. We live in an abundant world where the narrative, the story, is often one of scarcity, it is important to acknowledge the reality of what is lacking. There are some giant deficits, and yet staying rooted in the reality of abundance is essential, and being able to accompany others in the challenging times into the what if of what comes next, times of exploration and transition can then turn into times of discovery, which feeds the truth of abundance. 

As some of you know, as many of you know, as most of you know, there was a wedding in Mexico City last week, at least one my daughter and son in law, who have been married since September 2020, were not able to have a ceremony at that time, so almost five years later, it was time, and it was a time. I love cities. I love walking in them. I love people watching. I love the public parks and the fountains and the water and the green spaces that so many cities have thoughtfully conserved. I love the all kinds of people of it. I do follow advice for ways to stay safe. I do that as much there as I do it here, and I am not afraid with Annie and Eduardo’s accompaniment over now five visits there, Mexico City has become as familiar to me as anywhere last week, our family explored the historic city center known as the Centro. Have any of you been to Mexico City, to the Centro? Do we know this? Can you wave at me if you did? Okay, just so I can tell. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. Do. Great. See me after let’s share pictures. 

We explored the city center, starting at the monument to the revolution. We crossed big avenues, walked through the Alameda Central, the America’s oldest public park, founded in 1592 past be as artes and on to the wide pedestrian mall, shops, restaurants, street vendors, blue and white tiled buildings, yellow churches lined the way. This was my son Rylan’s first visit to Mexico, and so he did a little research on Reddit before our trek, Reddit had informed him that this was going to be a dirty, crowded, sketchy place. As soon as we arrived, he could see and feel that this characterization was just not true, and an immersive heart opening world as oyster, transformation began to take place in real time. 

The Centro offered us chilaquiles and the expansive Zocalo, a chance to see history through the excavations that show the remnants of holy places that were demolished by colonizers who built their cathedral straight on top of the Aztec Templo Mayor, we learned again why the sewer system built long ago in this valley that is 7300 feet above sea level, surrounded by mountains, is fragile, and why potable water is rare, smashing some of the stereotypes and the biases of the story of this place We did not have or take the time for 1000 things, in part because we had logistical wedding preparations to tend to, and in part because there were 1000 things. But this was just the beginning of a new year that took our family into a visceral connection with the wider world and with each other. 

Preconceptions that had been fed by misconceptions morphed into a shared experience of discovery and love. Where you go, I will go. Maria Popova has said, the longer I live, the more deeply I learn that love is the work of mirroring and magnifying each other’s light, gentle work, steadfast work, life, saving work in those moments when life and shame and sorrow occlude our own light from our view, but there is still a clear eyed loving person to beam it back in our best moments. We are that person for another. 

This morning, it just dawned on me that this is the same sentiment that is in a song by Sweet Honey in the Rock called there are no mirrors in my Nana’s house. I don’t know if you know that song, but it’s findable. There are no mirrors in my Nana’s house, and the beauty that I saw in everything was in her eyes. We can be that loving person to another who is adjacent to us with whom we have shared experience. We can be that loving person for another in our roles as students, teacher, parent, grandparent, colleague, friend, mentor. We can be that for another. If we can stay in touch with curiosity, we can be that for each other in this new year full of things that have never been. I was in this room on Friday with some of you when it was filled. Involved with Guilford’s faculty and staff. I was here to bring them a welcome from New Garden during their opening community meeting, I told them they should consider us their backup band. I want to say this again now, especially to all the students and teachers and families who are present this morning as you launch this year. New Garden may be made up of many people who march to their own drummers, but our rhythms come into alignment when we have the opportunity to collectively help you move out from behind the piano and sing your song. 

I invite you now into open waiting worship, if you feel during this time of covered silence, a nudge to share a message that emerges within you. Check that nudge for its divine source, and if that nudge pushes you to your feet, please come to a microphone or unmute on Zoom, say your name and share your vocal ministry so that all may hear. Please know too that we are comfortable in grounded and extended silence, knowing that we are accompanied within it. Let there be an opening into the quiet that lies beneath the chaos where you find the peace you did not think possible and see what shimmers within the storm. 

Zack Jackson  

Thank you for listening, and thank you to Brenda Esch and everyone at New Garden Friends Meeting for allowing us to join you today. Check out our website at Quakerpodcast.com for discussion questions, a transcript of today’s episode and links to more resources. Make sure you subscribe so you don’t miss a thing this season. This episode was hosted, produced and edited by me, Zack Jackson. Jon Watts, wrote and produced the music. Thee Quaker Podcast is a part of Thee Quaker project. We are a nonprofit Quaker media organization dedicated to giving Quakerism a platform in the 21st Century. If you like what we’re up to, please consider becoming a monthly supporter. You can go to Quakerpodcast.com and click support in the top right window. It takes less than five minutes, and we really appreciate it. And now our daily Quaker message as read by Grace Gonglewski.

Grace Gonglewski  

Elizabeth Gray Vining, 1952. What we must do, with God’s help is to accept sorrow as a friend, if possible, if not, as a companion with whom we will live for an indeterminate period, for whom we have to make room as one makes room for a guest in one’s house, a companion of whom we shall always be aware, and from whom we can learn, and whose strength will become our strength. Together, we can create beauty from the ashes and find ourselves in the process.

Zack Jackson  

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Hosted, produced, mixed, and mastered by Zack Jackson.

Original music and sound design by Jon Watts (Listen to more of Jon’s music here.)

This season’s cover art is by Todd Drake

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